Final thoughts on losing Marquis Teague
by Mike Rutherford on Apr 27, 2010 10:38 AM EDT
in Basketball
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PrintThere isn't much to be said that hasn't already been addressed (and done so quite well by many on this site) at this point, but I would like to tackle the topic at least briefly before it finally receives the lack of attention it deserves.
We can discuss the significance of Marquis Teague spurning Rick Pitino and Louisville for John Calipari and Kentucky from now until Derby Day (let's don't), but the unrelenting truth is that we won't know the true impact of last Thursday's announcement for at least a couple of years.
I've heard multiple people reference Pitino losing Teague as being the equivalent of Denny Crum losing Wade and, subsequently, Allan Houston to Tennessee, an exodus which is widely viewed as the beginning of the end of the Crum era at Louisville. It's an analogy that may prove to be true, but it seems just a touch premature at the moment.
Right now, I think the significance of the situation is three-fold: It's a little bit about the Louisville/Kentucky rivalry, a little bit more about the talents of a high school senior-to-be, and a little bit more about the state and image of the U of L basketball program.
If it wasn't before, Kentucky's status in the college basketball world is solidified.
If you have enough talent, you can come to Kentucky, play in front of a lot of fans, receive a lot of national attention and set yourself up to be a millionaire in less than a year. And if you win a national championship along the way...cool.
If given the choice, I don't think there's a coach in America who would choose to have it this way, but if you're John Calipari and you can get two or three of the five best high school seniors in the country every year, what else do you do? Now if Kentucky is continues to be spring's champion but fails to taste a Final Four for the next three or four years, then I think you have to re-evaluate your strategy. Until then you dismiss the "Traveling Circus" and "AAUniversity" talk and hope talent wins out in next year's NCAA Tournament.
As for Louisville, I don't think there's any denying that this has been a solid body blow to the program and a forceful head shot to the image of the man who's the face of it.
The fact that Rick Pitino has put a lot of stock in the 2011-2012 season is the worst-kept secret in the Derby City, and losing the class of '11 player to whom he'd devoted the most attention to landing was undoubtedly a bitter pill to swallow, but anyone who thinks being spurned by a 17-year-old is going to alter the entire philosophy of the only coach to take three programs to the Final Four is a fool.
Listening to the radio last week, I twice heard Pitino referred to as "old school." It was a bit surreal, but it certainly wasn't off-base.
Pitino isn't going to throw his kids on the floor and let them go, a style which Teague admitted enticed him to commit to coach Cal. If it means U of L does suffer through a period of peril similar to the late '90s, then so be it, the man's not going to change. I also don't think he's going to stop chasing after the kids ranked 1-10 on the Scout and Rivals Top 100 lists, and I don't think he should. One very public recruiting defeat has momentarily overshadowed a lot of recent recruiting successes, and time will bring those back into light (a process which is already in motion).
As I said at the start, it will be years before the significance of "Teague-pocalypse" becomes apparent, but for those declaring with certainty that this is the beginning of the end of the Rick Pitino era at Louisville, I would point you in the direction of Pitino's prior most high-profile recruiting swing-and-miss at U of L.
Sebastian Telfair was supposed to be the guy to thrust Louisville back into the national spotlight. He played for the most well-known high school basketball program in New York City, he had been on the cover of Sports Illiustrated, his senior year of high school was made into a documentary that aired on ESPN, and he ended up playing zero games with Rick Pitino as his head coach.
As if losing Telfair wasn't bad enough, the attention paid to the point guard from the Big Apple also forced Pitino to miss out on Rajon Rondo, a kid from Louisville who had grown up a Louisville fan. Rondo ended up going to Kentucky before becoming an NBA All-Star and winning a world championship with the Boston Celtics.
All of this happened in 2003. Louisville went to the Final Four in 2005.
There are players everywhere. In this era it's all about finding the right mix and getting a little lucky.
Don't jump.
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The Teague post to end all Teague posts. Well-done. Great point about Rajon and Telfair.
by crazygameofpoker on Apr 27, 2010 10:46 AM EDT reply actions
Well Written
As a UK fan, I come to CC because you are the funniest blogger around and the rest of the CC community are almost as funny.
This post isn’t funny but perfectly encapsulates how Cardinal fans should be feeling about the Teague affair.
Don’t worry, UL will be back on top (and we will have an off year). I don’t comment here often because I don’t want to come across as an ankle biting stereotype of a UK fan, but I couldn’t resist today.
Again, very well written and I hope most Cardinal fans take it to heart.
* backs away from the ledge, curls up in the fetal position and sobs*
It’s been a tough year… I let it get to me.
by bjack357 on Apr 27, 2010 10:56 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
damn it, I was going to post teh same thing
but you beat me to it.
by Chris Redman is my hero on Apr 27, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Telfair
I think the reference to Telfair is very appropriate, but not for the same reasons you state. Most importantly, Telfair spurned Pitino six years ago. He was just finishing his third season at Louisville and he had just come off two seasons where his team achieved the number two ranking late in the season. The future, at that time, looked far, far brighter than it does today simply because Pitino was early in his tenure here.
Regrettably for Pitino, he will be seven years older the day Teague steps on the court than he was when Telfair would have stepped on the court. I don’t think that’s a fact that eludes the top prospects either. Age is a factor and even Howie Lindsey said Pitino’s recent extension was due almost solely to entice Teague to commit. The closer Pitino gets to 60, the harder it will be to recruit in my view.
I don’t think the decision by Teague can be overplayed. As it relates to Telfair, just look at the PG turmoil that has surrounded the program since he did not come here and establish Louisville as a place for top PG’s. The best Pitino could do was Sosa and McGee. Now I think McGee turned out well in the end, but PG play, and guard play in general, hurt the program for some time. For two straight years, we essentially ran our offense through a center and a small forward.
In the end, perception is reality and Pitino will have to recruit with this stigma for some time. He made the 2011 class the focus of his entire strategy and now it is starting to show serious cracks. It going to be difficult for him to go around to other top prospects in 2011 and 2012 and sell them on Louisville when the prospects can see a strong class almost evaporated. The prospects are going to wonder what is wrong with Pitino and Louisville. That’s a cancer for recruiting.
In some ways, I see a lot of similarities to the end of the Denny Crum era when it comes to recruiting. Then, Crum tried to stave off the hounds by promising a bumper recruiting class in 2001. Unfortunately, David Harrison and Ousmane Cisse went elsewhere and so did Denny. That doesn’t even touch on the recruiting flops that occured in the two or three years before the 2001 last ditch recruiting effort. I’m not saying Pitino is going to have a losing season, I’m just saying it reminds me of that time when we lost out on our top players and were in constant scramble mode as a result.
Maybe Pitino recovers and he proves me wrong. I hope that’s the case, but flopping in such a high profile manner at this point in his career is not a great sign for the future of recruiting.
Telfair spurned Pitino six years ago. He was just finishing his third season at Louisville and he had just come off two seasons where his team achieved the number two ranking late in the season. The future, at that time, looked far, far brighter than it does today simply because Pitino was early in his tenure here.
And in the years since Telfair did not come, Pitino has achieved a Final Four, two more Elite Eights, and Louisville’s first-ever #1 ranking at the end of the season. The future looks much brighter today because Pitino has proven he can take the program to high levels whether or not he gets the kids on the cover of SI.
As Mike pointed out, the focus on Telfair probably cost Pitino the chance to sign Rajan Rondo, who went on to stardom down the road. And still the world kept turning, and Pitino’s Louisville teams kept winning. In the wake of the Teague snub, on the other hand, Pitino has gotten a commitment from Gurgui Sy Dieng, a highly regarded big man with incredible upside potential.
Teague is one recruit who has verballed to someone else, and is a year and a half away from playing anywhere. Get over it.
All of what you stated about the past is true, but it’s in the past. No high school kid cares what happened five years ago or even one year ago. If that were the case and knowing how much playing time was available, why did both Fab Melo and Tobias Harris spurn us? The point is we must always look forward. Resting on our laurels does not win games and recruits don’t care about it. It makes the fans feel warm and fuzzy on the inside, but that’s about it.
Again, I say that most Louisville fans continue to see Pitino as the same coach who won all of those games at Kentucky. Unfortunately, the coach he has been at Louisville is just not the same. Yes, we’ve made it to three Final Eights, but big deal. No one remembers who made it to the Final Eight. Final Four’s are what count and we have one in nine years. On the day he was hired, I suspect most fans believed we would make it to the Final Eight more just 33% of the time and the Final four more than 11% of the time.
While my post dealt with Teague, it’s not about just one player. It’s about what that one player’s decision means for the future of our recruiting efforts. In a vaccum, Teague is no big deal, but we don’t live in a vaccum and other young recruits are sure to notice what he said and did. Most importantly, he chose UK depsite Pitino all but moving in with him. He went on to say he chose Cal because Cal lets them play. Don’t you think they’ll use that line against Pitino for some time to come.
I just don’t know how you can say the program’s future is brighter today than it was six or seven years ago. Considering who is on our roster, it looks dimmer to me. I know a lot of people will try and make themselves feel better because of Dieng, but he is the ultimate diamond in the rough. He may end up as a four star recruit, but so was Swop. History tells us few of these little known foreign players rarely pan out. I’ve got my fingers crossed, but he doesn’t make up for losing out on the number two player and all the publicity that comes with him.
If you want to say Teague is just one player, well ok. Regardless, I’m disappointed so few seem willing to hold Pitino even marginally accountable for what has taken place over the last year or so. I would argue his entire tenure here has been underwhelming, but I know that’s a minority view. Still, the man’s made about $30 million since he’e been here and I think nine years is enough time to start holding his feet to a small fire.
Age hasn't stopped Boeheim or Calhoun from recruiting
and they’re in our conference for christ sake. Also, saying we were “forced” to run our offense through a SF and a C is really shorting both Padgett and T-Will. Both were incredible players with gifted court vision. Does the Cavaliers running their offense through a SF mean that they’re a bad team? No. I’m also not comparing T-Will to LeBron, just bringing up the fact that you don’t have to have a PG run your offense to have that offense be successful.
by Chris Redman is my hero on Apr 27, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This is team-specific college sports blog excellence.
I didn’t even care about Teague, and this still made me feel better.
Who's the last great Point Guard to play for Rick?
ohh, that’s right, he doesn’t need a great point guard to win. When I say great point guard I mean NBA type player. The answer is none. We don’t need Teague to win a Championship. We need players that buy into his system. That’s it.
"You win some, You lose some but you never stop trying to do your best" Denny Crum
He may not need one
But Siva is going to be tremendous.
by Mike Rutherford on Apr 27, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
He’s something special. Can’t wait to see him playing 30+ minutes a game.
"You win some, You lose some but you never stop trying to do your best" Denny Crum
He may be the first Great Point
Rick has coached. We just haven’t seen him play much.
"You win some, You lose some but you never stop trying to do your best" Denny Crum
Well done and exactly on point.
Whereas the Whacker post is a swing and a miss. Teague is one player, a player not yet out of high school. To assume that losing this one kid makes the current Pitino situation similar to Denny Crum’s final years calls for a leap of logic that would leave Socrates turning flips in his grave.
theoldman
A swing and a miss! Ha! There is no way anyone can say that with a straight face unless they are in total honk mode. Denying that Teague’s decision was a true blow to Pitino ‘s perception and Louisville’s perception is crazy. Of course it hurt us and will hurt us until we prove it on the court and win a major recruiting battle.
As for Denny’s final years, it’s always dangerous to draw similarities on message boards because most people assume you’re saying the exact same thing will happen. Of course, that’s not what I said, but it’s tough for a lot of fans to view their favorite program in an unbiased manner. Despite that and while Pitino will never let the program sink as far as Denny did, there are quite a few similarities when it comes to recruiting swings and misses. The y might be on different levels, but the comparisons are there.
Internet anonymity aside, I applaud Whacker77 for having the balls to state his opinion & stick to it
Time will tell if his prediction comes to fruition.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Apr 27, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
What in hell is 'total honk mode'?
No one’s denying that the Teaque thing is blow to the program. Of course it is. But the point is exactly what Mike said: No one will know the impact of all of this for a couple of year, and to compare it to losing Wade and Allen is, well, a swing and a miss.
theoldman
Did you miss this part of Mike's post?
As for Louisville, I don’t think there’s any denying that this has been a solid body blow to the program and a forceful head shot to the image of the man who’s the face of it.
You are setting up strawmen. Everyone agrees we want Teague. Everyone agrees that losing Teague is a blow to Pitino, both because it means we don’t get his talent, because UK does, and because it presents an image problem for the school.
But the point is that the reports of Pitino’s demise have been made before, and they were greatly exaggerated. There is little reason for escalated concern this time around.
In any event, you can’t talk about wanting Pitino gone without identifying why you think things would be better without him. UofL is a great program, and Louisville is a great city such that I think we can draw some great coaches. But no coach who is capable of beating Cal head-to-head right now for a PG (Are there any? Self or Roy, maybe), is coming to Louisville. I’d love Wright, but he’s likely a reach. I’d love some up and comers, but they are certainly not going to bring in the same talent we have coming next season, with or without Teague. Unless you can propose how things would be better without Pitino, you need to couch your criticism of him considerably.
by 83fan on Apr 27, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree with 83
With all due respect, Whacker, as you are clearly knowledgeable when it comes to the program, I’m just not sure what the clearly better alternative is at this point. Given your level of patience, it’s tough to imagine you being satisfied with anyone. Bottom line: if we can him and go for an up-and-comer, it sets us back and people are howling for the days when we were a Final Four team/threat 3 out of 5 years.
We’re all frustrated, but the school to the east isn’t the only measuring stick.
by doctorofdunk on Apr 27, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
As far as patience goes, it’s not about this past year or Teague. It’s about the entire nine years. I’ve been frustrated for some time, but would be willing to give any coach the benfit of the doubt if I saw real signs of progress. I see a lot of floundering and flailing right now.
It's all about perception.
Don’t you think Indiana would kill to have been in a Final 4 and 2 Elite 8s in the past 9 years? I think so. Other than Davis miracle run in 2002, they haven’t had ANYTHING positive and have tried 4 head coaches.
I don’t mean to be comparative and open up “at least it’s not this bad” because you can counter “well it’s not this good either”. The point is one of perception. I think we are in a great position. We have been highly nationally relevant 6 of Pitino’s 9 years and have had 2-3 legitimate shots at a national title. Looking at his span of 9 years YES he could have done better, but have the results been satisfactory? To me, absolutely.
by Remote Cardinal on Apr 28, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know how
you can say a team with 2 McDonalds AA and a bunch of 3 & 4 star recruits is “floundering & Flailing” but like Doctorofdunk said it about your perception. Obviously you’re a glass is half empty kind of person.
"You win some, You lose some but you never stop trying to do your best" Denny Crum
Great Teague Exodus Post
Thanks Mike and let’s now move on. I think we (as fans, as humans) often harp on what we don’t have and what we could/should/would have done instead of focusing on what we do have and what we can do.
I hope we are done with talking about this junior in high school now.
Maddie in Portland, Oregon
NAILED IT MIKE
everybody needs to just relax we all know there is something funny going on in Lexington, but to hell with them they will get theirs one day.
by ville 606 on Apr 27, 2010 4:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
agreed
Look I care 1000 times less about Teague not committing than what Pitino does and says about the people who do come here. I grow tired of him saying that a team has a lack of athleticism and talent. Guess what pops you recruited that lack of talent and athleticism shut the hell up and coach them.
Say what you will about Sosa. Look at Caracter. Two HIGH recruits who were “head cases”. Did Pitino have to get head cases to come in order to have high ranked recruits? Did he develop them? Did Jerry Smith improve every year? Did all the guys who were recruited and transferred? Did Tello?
Pitino has recruited based on people leaving after one or two years and promised scholarships and had to ask/force people to transfer to have scholarships available.
There are formulas for winning in college basketball. UNC gets multiple McDonald’s All Americans each year and reloads when two or three people leave as Soph, Jr.s. Mich St. has a system and recruits people to play in that system and seemingly plug in people of the same size and talent into those positions each year. UK now has a system get 3-4 guys who are going to be there one – two years and run an exciting brand of bball and have fun.
I have difficulty believing that Pitino’s current plan will be able to defeat all the other proven plans in the NCAA. UNC, UK, Duke, Mich St., Kansas, and the competition in the Big East. This is a lot to overcome every year.
Rick before, Rick now
Rick is not he same coach now as he was when he was at UK. He has changed a lot in the time he was coach at Boston. The death of his brother-in-law may have affected him more than we may know. When he was at UK I would have never believed he would have cheated on his wife. Now he doesn’t seem to smile as much, the type of players he recruits now are different than what he had at UK. At UK, he would have never let his players sing the type of song the UL player were singing in the hall b-4 the UK/UL game this year. As a UK fan I’m grateful for what he did for UK when he took over the program and brought us back from Sutton’s disgrace. But he broke our hearts and he knew it would when he took the job at UL and for that I’ll never forgive him.
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