What is Rick Pitino supposed to do?
by CardsFan922 on Apr 22, 2010 1:56 AM EDT
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PrintThere will be LOTS of Pitino bashing, but other than "try harder" or "he should have said X or Y" what exactly could Pitino have done to get this kid? The current college basketball recruiting landscape for the very top subjects heavily favors Kentucky now. I know his dad played for Pitino, but why is that necessarily a lock?
Calipari (and if rumors are to be believed, WWW and Lebron) are tough people to recruit against, and it's not just Pitino losing guys to him/them. While UK didn't make the Final Four, Calipari and his superstar freshman were the talk of the college basketball world this season, were on the cover of all sorts of magazines, profiled on TV, had Drake and WWW and Lebron at games, and have 5 guys who will go in the first round. To today's top flight players, winning the tournament isn't everything. By the measure of things a lot of these kids are looking for, UK had an extremely, extremely successful season.
And who is to say that's not a rational way for kids to decide? If Teague goes to UK and they pull in Miller, Wroten and Chandler, that is an unreal recruiting class. They may not make the Final Four, but they will have a hell of a year and will get a ton of attention, so who cares (from Teague's perspective) if UK's model is successful at everything on the checklist BUT deep NCAA runs? Or if there's a chance those wins are eventually struck from the record books? DRose and Marcus Camby seem to be doing okay for themselves.
Look, Pitino's job is to win basketball games, as many as he can during the season, and make deep NCAA runs. He used to could sell his NBA connections on elite prospects, but guys don't know as much about the DA/Mercer/Pope/Delk era NBA players he put in the NBA. When he first came back to UofL, he focused too much on NBA, 5-star prospects who burned him and went pro - Telfair being the most obvious example, but James Lang, Amir Johnson, Donta Smith all were high school (or JUCO) studs who committed and then never showed up. So Pitino shifted to try to get "gym rats" like Garcia and Dean, four year players like O'Bannon and Myles....and then the one-and-done rule changed recruiting again. You can't just win with the four-year guys, especially in the Big East and especially with unbalanced classes (senior day next year will be Preston!.....and that's it).
So Pitino has to keep recruitng the 5-stars. But then guys like Caracter don't pan out because he won't listen to Pitino, and Tyler goes pro to Europe early, and a guy like Teague gets taken away by Calipari. I can't imagine anything worse for a 60 year old man with Pitino's ego and well-deserved sense of accomplishment in the game of basketball having to "show love" to 17 year old kids who don't want to play defense or learn a complicated offense or whatever else these guys hear all the time from agents, runners, AAU coaches, other players, etc.
And I think that's what it all comes down to: the dirty little secret is that Pitino is not going to develop players for the NBA. Pitino is going to develop players to fit his system to help Louisville win basketball games. If that development also helps a player make it in the NBA (like it did with Garcia and T-Will), then all the better. But when that system requires a guy like Samardo to play center because he can't play the 4 in our offense or defense, then that doesn't help Samardo develop the specific skills he will need to make it in the NBA. Or the system requires a guy like JDP to play the 4 when he was an athletic 6'8'' guy who could shoot 3s but did not have low post moves.
Guys like Siva, Buckles, Swopshire, Coleman, who are in the high major prospect world but are not guys who think they are bigger than Pitino's system. The best thing about Teague was that he probably wasn't either, even though he is the best PG prospect in his age group. And to be clear, I don't think Teague ultimately picked UK because he didn't want to learn/work hard for Pitino. But I also don't think its irrational for the Knight/Gilcrist/Teague level players to realize they would rather have a system that shows off their individual skills for potential multi-million-dollar-a-year employers than one in which everyone plays less minutes, there is less emphasis on individual scoring and more emphasis on team/winning. It's not like they aren't still going to win a ton of games at UK. It's not like they are going to Depaul or St. Louis. But they are going to a system that wins with an offense designed to highlight their individual skills, and a system that gives its best players tons of minutes. They play aggressive man-to-man defense because they are really athletic, but they aren't going to get pulled if their man scores.
One-and-done guys are not what Pitino is really looking for and are just not the best fits for Pitino's system. Teague was the exception because of his family history, and apparently Blackshear has the same work ethic/team mentality that may make him fit if he doesn't jump ship in the next 12-18 months, which is a lot of time to be worried about as history has shown us. The 2011-2012 team will still be really good, with a couple of 4-stars ending up here, including guys we've probably not even thought about yet. But it will probably not be relying on superstar freshman to deliver us our fist championship in 25+ years. Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program, but as we saw this year, it does not guarantee anything.
If you wanted to play in the NBA and it was clear that you were a one-and-done, and you had the last 3-4 years as your frame of reference, and especially you saw this last season at UK and knew that you had a chance to have that same sort of season because of the other 5-star, one-and-done guys that were going to UK, and you had Lebron calling and telling you about how much money John Wall was going to make as a part of Lebron's stable, would you really have to think that hard about this decision?
So I ask again: what is Pitino supposed to do?
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Notwithstanding the breathless hype, we don't need Teague.
Siva will be a very good point guard by 2011, and he will know Pitino’s system inside and out. We do need to keep Blackshear. And we need Coleman to be here as well.
The Chandler thing still bothers me more than losing Teague. I wonder what the back story is there.
by cardsinindy2010 on Apr 22, 2010 2:07 AM EDT reply actions
This is one of the best things I've ever read on this site
Completely agree. I think this will be the last straw in showing him he needs to recruit a different type of player, but another key in my mind is that he may need to bite the bullet and change his coaching style. Love him or hate him, Coach K showed this year that one of the reasons he’s the best is that he can reinvent the way his teams play. Pitino takes a lot of pride in the high-octane attack that got people so excited in Lexington in the 90s. As a result, there’s a better chance he will dress like Huggins than there is of him abandoning his way. It’s press, press, press and shoot 3s.
Not only does he need to go after a different type of player, he needs to TAILOR his system to the players he has, not the other way around. If the 3s aren’t falling, we need a plan. If they have guards who can break the press, we need to stop. If they throw a junk defense, we need a timeout and a way to defeat this defense. Pitino relies on his system so much that in-game strategy often goes out the window, and unfortunately he’s been exposed in this regard at really bad times lately (Michigan State last March comes to mind).
I will say it again: if you’re just gonna whine and you think that this is the death knell for us as a relevant program, take it to another site. To assume that we’re done as a national power is to greatly underestimate Rick, his staff, the appeal of our facilities and new arena to recruits, and the atmosphere our fans will create in The Bucket. First things first, however: Pitino needs to take a long look in the mirror, swallow his pride, and switch it up. If he doesn’t, the frustration will mount and things will stay the same or get worse. If he does, we WILL beat the Cats regularly. It may not be good for his ego, but it’s the right choice .
by doctorofdunk on Apr 22, 2010 2:40 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
haha yeah, those are eerily similar
I really hope that our fan base listens to more of what you and 922 are saying. I can only take the mopey comments so much.
by doctorofdunk on Apr 22, 2010 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
and don't be silly
a manual grad/card chronicler never owes me an apology for anything (especially when he has no way of being telepathic on a blog).
by doctorofdunk on Apr 22, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm just curious, how do you think Coach K tailored his style
It seems that he still emphasized defense like he’s done for 20 years, and he’s had perimeter-oriented teams for about 5 years now, it’s just Zoubek and the Plumlees gave this team enough of an inside presence that they could survive.
by Chris Redman is my hero on Apr 22, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
fair question
just my opinion, but i think from 03 to 09, duke was much more of a finesse team that got outmuscled and outplayed by longer, more athletic teams in the tourney.
yes, they were getting 4 and 5-star guys, but i think coach k emphasized defense, rebounding and grinding it out much more this year than he did in the past. i agree that they’ve been perimeter-oriented, but what put them over the top this year was better rebounding from guys who weren’t really all that athletic. obviously he had the luxury of coaching the olympic team and learning some new wrinkles from his assistants (d’antoni ofthe knicks, for one), but i really think he was able to adjust his system to his players and play a style that minimized the chances of his team being exposed as unathletic.
by doctorofdunk on Apr 22, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Unbelievable nearly 2:00 post CardsFan922
I know that all of us checking back on CC at two in the morning must have a lot of blood boiling in our veins, so to see a post void of much emotion and, instead, rooted in logical thought processes is refreshing and worth reading.
With that being said, I think your most important point exposing the “dirty little secret” that Pitino is not bringing kids to Louisville to develop their NBA potential is troublesome. I understand that painting Pitino in this light is essentially pitting him on the opposite side of the coin with Calipari; flipped over and over again, who will be the first to win a national championship? I get that. But that is not the dirty little secret. The secret that no one wants to whisper is that Pitino and Calipari are the same coach. Both coaches at one time have been the best in the country at recruiting the top talent. Both coaches have NBA coaching experience and use those experiences to attract future NBA talent to their programs. But here is the most important similarity: neither one of these coaches is a good college coach without talent. Both coaches’ college successes are predicated not on the DDMO or the scouting report, multi offensive and defensive sets systems that these guys run, but rather on their abilities to recruit the top talent. Izzo and Coach K have college systems that can work without top talent. Calhoun, Self, and Williams don’t.
And neither do Calipari and Pitino. UofL fans can’t pretend that Pitino has half the true coaching competency that Crum had. We grew up watching intricate and fine basketball. And, one day UK fans will start to recognize this discrepensy too.
Ultimately then, the problem becomes this: if your formula for success involves the top tier talent, and you’re not accumulating that talent, you are screwed. You are. Calipari knows this, and regardless of how he is getting that talent, he is getting that talent.
As a UofL fan, I don’t desire to be an NBA stepping stone program. I don’t care that only two UofL players from the past 15 years get real minutes in the NBA. It’s not like every player we have had the opportunity to cheer for is now worthless because they aren’t Cisco, T Will, John Wall, Carmelo Anthony, whoever.
But I do care about a system, a program that makes sense. And a program with a coach at the helm whose success is predicated on talent that he can no longer acquire is a program headed in the wrong direction. Pitino has got to do the thing he hates the very most…adjust. This has got to be the wake up call.
by Zakem2002 on Apr 22, 2010 2:42 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Wow
who knew I’d be getting such quality when I logged in at 3am! Great posts 922, DoD, and Zakem.
No need for extensive repetition. But let me just say: I totally agree with 922’s “dirty little secret.” And personally, I don’t have a problem with it. I don’t want one-and-done guys unless they’re the right fit.
Rick’s system (press + 3s) requires players with talent, but not necessarily “top tier” guys. Maybe it will actually work BEST if we pick up guys who might be in the next tier down – guys who have talent, but who are willing to get in here for 2-4 years and WORK harder than any other program in the country. They gotta work on their game, work on their shot, and work on their conditioning.
I’m not saying that Rick’s system is perfect. It’s clear that he’s gonna have to adjust. But those Final Four/Elite 8 runs in ‘05, ’08, and ’09 weren’t about having the TOP top talent – they were about teams that ran a system and ran it well.
It’s clear that Rick is gonna need to re-evaluate his system, and I totally agree with DoD’s call for better in-game adjustments. But I don’t think that he’ll necessarily need “top” (aka “one-and-done”) talent to make that happen. So I’m not crying any tears over Teague.
One of the best posts
that moved to the main page that I have ever read on the Card Chronicle. And the comments thus far have also been very thoughtful and insightful.
I do wish for great talent and successful seasons and post seasons. However, I am a bit of a traditionalist and like that we have generally have 4 year players in the Pitino era. Does Coach need to adjust? Sure. But I personally don’t think it needs to come at the cost of developing young boys into young men and pursuing their careers in basketball and/or any other endeavor after school. I would surely love to see some more conference tiles, Final Fours, and a national championship, but to do so with solely using the latest fad then I’m not all in on that. I don’t mind a healthy mix of possible 1-2 year players with the traditional four year players, but am not excited nor interested in the complete revamping to the “1 and done I’ll get you in the NBA” mentality. I believe this trend will ultimately result in an over saturated and watered down game in the NBA and then the league and colleges will rethink this movement (remember there will be a lock out this next season too), but that may be a few years down the line.
I will say this: I love the fact that we have gotten some good 4 year talent (both within the state which is huge for me and from outside the state) who we can get attached too, cheer hard for an extended period of time and know that they will have enough time on campus, in the city, in the state that they will look back and themselves have some real emotional attachment and memories to the school, city, state, fans, students, and alumni they played for.
I know my views may not be popular in these days of more, more, more-now, now, now, but I’m kind of at peace with that. Looking forward to seeing Preston, Peyton, Elisha, Rakeem, Kyle, Stephen, and Jared play next year.
Maddie in Portland, Oregon
I don’t think the NBA can get oversaturated or watered down (for those who hate the NBA, i’ll add more than it is). There are a limited number of roster spots in the NBA and time and time again you see older more experienced players getting PT over younger players who don’t produce. The young one and dones who can’t hack it in the NBA will be replaced by veterans who can. The NBA is about winning the playoffs and making money. One and dones who can’t win don’t make money and they don’t win in the playoffs.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I'm not an NBA hater
but the game is already watered down (see unnecessary teams and no fans in some arenas). The one and done kids that are lottery picks get guaranteed contracts which is about money so I think there is making money and winning to be consider.
Maddie in Portland, Oregon
by kentuckybred on Apr 22, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
This is part of the shame of agents and parents peddling influence
You have a lot of outside parties convincing kids that they’re ready, and then when those kids end up out of the league in 3 years they don’t have anything to fall back on. That’s the real problem with the system. I don’t blame a lot of these kids for jumping, especially since so many of them come from poor backgrounds, but it’s a shame that they don’t have a college education to fall back on.
by Chris Redman is my hero on Apr 22, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Woten?
Or however you spell his name, he’s a UK recruit so who cares. Is he a reliable source? I have read no confirmation anywhere else that Teague is going to UK. Demnling suggests that the buzz favors UK but so what? Is there another source confirming this?
Well said, sir.
I agree wholeheartedly. Nobody in the country can now compete with the recruiting UK does. Not UNC, not Kansas, not Duke. But this just goes to show the debacle that is the NCAA. They have created this NBA factory. I’m sure UK will be hit with some scholarship sanctions down the road because no players will actually be finishing their freshman year, but who cares when you only play 6 players (5 freshmen) a game? Congrats UK, you have found the secret to exciting basketball – but at the cost of the true spirit of the college game.
My prediction: UK will become a national brand like the Yankees or the Lakers. The kids love a powerhouse with no respect for the game.
DocCardsFan
The 'Ville, KY
You guys nailed it
The gist is that Rick’s ego-driven, overly complicated systems has pushed away a lot of top tier talent (and turned a lot of five star recruits into two star players – the only high-profile recruit that’s performed anywhere close to expectations, at least statistically, is samardo). i mean, if you were teague and your choices were School A, where the system is simplified and designed to showcase individual talent (and by the way, get you on the cover of magazines and relatively deep into the NCAA tournament – elite eight is a lot better than our turd against Cal) or System B, where you get buried on the bench behind some guy just because he’s older than you and where your coach suggests that you transfer since you don’t work hard enough…is that really a choice? Why not just pre-emptively “transfer” to the other school and not waste a year or two getting Kragtinoed (my word for the deer in the headlights look you see from four star guys like Rock)? Rick’s highly-publicized humiliation of guys like Caracter and Sosa sticks in the mind of these future recruits, and he’s foolish to think otherwise.
So the reality is the 2011 recruiting class, which we’d all counted on to save our near-term prospects, is already falling apart (Chandler’s decommit, Teague’s commit to UK, Blackshear’s waffle a few months back). A lot of people have said that if Rick can’t deliver that class, then we should look elsewhere. The bottom line is that he has to drastically change his system to accommodate the modern game (more appropriately: the modern player) – isn’t that what we were saying about Denny Crum 12 years ago?
relatively deep into the NCAA tournament – elite eight is a lot better than our turd against Cal
We also had two elite 8s before that turd against Cal.
isn’t that what we were saying about Denny Crum 12 years ago?
I love Crum, but a difference between his situation and Pitino is that Pitino outside of last year (though it might become a trend it isn’t yet) has been winning (BE double, elite 8s) and lack of sanctions
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
What's the NCAA suppose to do?
the NBA made the rule that has started the rash of one and dones. The NCAA can’t force a kid to stay in school. The NBA would have to change it’s rules for this to change. The only thing the NCAA could do is tighten it’s recruiting rules, and start looking much harder for violations.
Excellent analysis of Pitino and his situation......Rick has always tried to put a
winning product on the floor with a lot of different kinds of players….its one of the things people love about him. He can take a project player and make him a star, if they will listen. Kids today do not listen well though.
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
My favorite part of this blog was...
the fact that all these kids ranked in the top 50 on any recruiting site, have 100 people telling them they should be number 1, from thier AAU coaches who are trying to use the kid to get a better job, to thier friends who just want to be on thier coat tails to enjoy the ride, to even the parents, who even if it is subconciously are making the decision to tell thier kid to go for the money. What happens to the kids who don’t make it, the jeremy tylers of the world, this kid dropped out of freakin high school to go to europe and failed miserably,. Why, because 100 people were telling him that he was good enough. Anyone remember Brandon Bender, the same thing, everyone was telling him how good he was and he failed miserably because he wasn’t the man at UofL. As long as pitino keeps getting 4 and 3 star guys he can develop, we will be fine, I do know this, the next time UK has a bad season, I am going to be the biggest bastard to them, I will be relentless in my pursuing of them, I will be on every UK blog, every facebook page, hell I may even go to myspace just to be a real jackass, this I promise you, god bless.
Why?
I’m glad to be a UofL fan because for the most part, we don’t send “in your face” childish posts… we would rather wins and performance on the court speak for themselves.
Unfortunately, we didn’t win the rivalry this past year.
I am tired of it though, I went through...
the two great UofL seasons being stoic and collected, not shooting down UK, but I am tired of the greatness they always claim when they do something good, every recruit is going to lead them to the championship, I am sorry, but Cousins and Wall were very special players, just like Derrick Rose was at Memphis, think of how good some of those prized Memphis freshman were supposed to be, Dejuan Wagner, Darius Washington, etc, etc. They never amounted to anything. “Somebody’s going to have to help that kid up”
by cards4life1 on Apr 22, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
cards4life1
Do as you wish. But by being a “jackass” on UK blogs/facebook pages, you’re basically admitting that they control how you think or at least how you emotionally react to bad situations. In short, you would emulate the worst qualities of UK’s every team’s irrational fan population.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Apr 22, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
What's Pitino supposed to do?
Win!
I’m sorry, but I’m no longer willing to give Pitino the benefit of the doubt. It was he who set up the 2011 recruiting class as possibly the best in the history of Louisville basketball. It was he who hired Teague’s AAU coach. I was he who coached Teague’s father in college. It was he who made Teague the lynch pin of this class since his eight grade year.
Pitino has made his bed with Teague, yet he allowed himself to get beaten out by a late entry from Calapari. Frankly, I don’t blame Teague one bit if he chooses UK either. Just look at the high draft status Cal’s last three PG have had or will have. Cal’s freshman friendly while Pitino seems more concerned about putting his first year players through some kind of Marine boot camp.
Right now, I’m starting to see worrisome similarities between the current recruiting of Pitino and the recruiting in the final days of Crum’s era. If you remember, Denny promised a big haul that would change things in 2001, but David Harrison and Ousame Cisse went elsewhere and so did Denny. Flash forward and now Chandler has left the fold and Teague is headed to UK. Will Blackshear be next? Maybe, especially if he thinks we’re a sinking ship.
We shouldn’t be too surprised by what we’re seeing either. Pitino has had a history of recruiting flameouts at Louisville. Telfair, Smith, Johnson, and the dope who went to Israel have all left us in a lerch. Now, we’re in such scramble mode we’ve taken a player in Coleman who probably has little if any shot and being eligible. Isn’t that the reason we cooled on Chandler, by the way?
I’ve never been an advocate of saying it’s time for Pitino to go, but I’m a lot closer than I was. Recruiting is the lifeblood of the program and if the perception becomes one that we can’t win the big fights, we’re road kill. That’s how we’ve ended up with guys like Swop, SVT, Millard, Huffman, and the other assortment of turds.
I understand the point CardsFan922 is making, but when you look at the collection of recruiting mishaps as a whole, you have to see a trend that points back to Pitino. It’s time for him to spend less time on the golf courses at Audubon and Hurstbourne.
....and quit blowing smoke up all our asses?..!
This is what pisses me of most about Rick’s tenure.. The above post was great by the way, But these situations wouldn’t be so hard on us if Rick just kept quiet. Im sick of the comparisons (Palacios aka the next Mashburn) and (Swopshire aka Scott Padget) …I know there are more. And to talk about the class of 11 as the greatest recuriting class in UL history before anyone had even signed yet is just not a smart move if you are trying to keep the fans on your side. Im still in RIck’s corner, but my patience is getting thin.
dont let it get too thin
we were the number one team in the country 13 months ago. Lets be honest, if UK hadn’t had a successful season and missed the tourney again none of this talk would be occurring. I don’t like rick pitino as a person, but hes still a damn good basketball coach. This is nowhere near the end of crum’s era. Let’s relax for a second.
by cheaters never win on Apr 22, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
The recruiting similarities are there and they are disturbing. This has nothing to do with UK winning or not. It has everything to do with the health of the program. If we can win big recruiting fights, we’re in trouble perception wise.
It’s great you can point to last season as number one, but other than that year or two or three others, the Pitino tenure has been one of underperformance. For the money we pay him and the contract extension he received, we should expect a lot more.
by Whacker77 on Apr 22, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No they aren't unless you are looking for them.
Nadenov, Myles, Whitehead, Wilkinson, and N’Sima was Crum’s last class. Only 2 of those guys amounted to anything (after Pitino took over for them). The only guy who might find a spot in our 2011 class would be Whitehead, and you’d be griping about him.
Poll:
What potential replacement for Coach Pitino could fare better in a recruiting battle against Lebron WWW Nike Calipari?
by UL is my hot hot sex on Apr 22, 2010 12:01 PM EDT reply actions
I honestly think Bruce Pearl would do better at going toe-to-toe with Cal
but overall as a basketball coach? I’d rather stick with Ricky P
Right now...Nobody.
A few years from now, who knows. The way this recruiting business works, a lot can change in a short time.
No matter the Teague outcome, we all know the battle isn’t over. CRP nor Cal will back down if they “lose” the battle today.
by Remote Cardinal on Apr 22, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
question
who is WWW, i cant figure it out for nothing…..
by dustin5million on Apr 23, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I read these posts and comments in Admin Law class this morning
and now my professor probably thinks I’m just really upset that there are a due process requirements to administrative decisions.
by REALISTICCARDSFAN on Apr 22, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions
hey i start law school this fall...
and i hear 1st year is a blast! I’m especially looking forward to not having a social life.
by quiet cardinal on Apr 22, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
This is starting to become a movie script
All we need is a plot twist. Like if the NCAA used a Top 10 recruit in a “sting” operation to build a case against shady McGrady recruiting tactics. I’m not saying Louisville is squeaky clean now or has always been in this area. Just that it would make for an interesting documentary on ESPN’s “35 for 35” in a few years.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Apr 22, 2010 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
Great Post
The whole situation is frustrating. I mean, I guess Pitino’s problem has been over-hyping and under-delivering. If he could manage expectations a little bit better, it wouldn’t make things seem quite so bad. I had a UK fan tell me that Calipari was an amazing recruiter, but he was a horrible in-game coach, which is why he can’t win the big game. Also, do you really want to see your star freshman tearing your coach a new one during a game? How is that any better than watching Sosa or Samardo pout on the sidelines. I know that we really all want a national championship, but at what cost? Pitino has proven that he can win consistently, and he certainly hasn’t had a year like Crum’s last year (wasn’t Crum 12-18 that year?) If we were patient enough with he who shall not be named, let’s give Pitino at least a couple of years to right the ship. He’s earned that much from us.
by Chris Redman is my hero on Apr 22, 2010 12:48 PM EDT reply actions
UK and Louisville fan...
have been blue and white since birth..but love Rick and the Ville is always a team I root for (unless they play Kentucky)…a spate of bad luck to lose Tyler, Chandler (possibly) and now Teague (definitvely)…I still think Rick will be fine in the long run…he may not win the in-state battles very often, but he certainly will have his teams prepared for the NCAA’s (albeit losing to Cal in the first round this year was somewhat disheartening)… as for Lebron’s and WWW influence in the recruiting process..too much is being made of such outside influences…that sounds more like UFO hunting than actual “news”… and Rick hiring Teagues high-school assistant as a special advisor/coach is more a byproduct of the current system which allows questionable practices to continue…but fear not Ville fans…Rick will find a way to overcome losing Teague
Thanks for the cool headedness
I am almost dizzy today, this is very shocking. I have had UK fans tell me they expect probation in 2 years. I am starting to believe that maybe nothing will happen and Squid will just work the system in perpetuity.
The way I feel right now, this is not good. I think Calipari is going to tear this state apart-and it was barely civil to begin with.
I feel the same way ...I better not see a shirt, car flag nothing....
The arrival of calipari has has brought a new meaning to the term " bad blood ", Look how the first head to head between Rick and Calipari went… The first few minutes ressembled a MMA match…
Not one major coach would have lost Teague to Cal
given the same advantages Pitino had. Not one. Hell, most would have had him committed months ago. What is he supposed to do you ask? Well, seeing as he is recruiting a top 5 player, how about he actually play his best players for a change? Of course we all love Sosa and his complete lack of development in four years, and I’m sure that Teague sees that. But not as much as he saw him in and out of Pitino’s doghouse for four years and getting in trouble every time he tried to play the game his way instead of Pitino’s. I’m sure that was very appealing to any PG prospect. I’m also sure he loved how our McD’s AA rode the bench behind a senior who wasn’t exactly better than him (should have played together with Smith off the bench). What other McD’s AA ride the bench like that for no real reason? And then of course there’s the fact that Pitino has no idea what position to play anyone, despite how obvious it is. Kuric is 6"3 and not a f***ing small forward. That is why he gets dominated in the post. Neither is Reggie Delk. You know who is a pretty good sized SF? Jared Swopshire, everyone’s favorite punching bag. But guess what? He was stupidly played PF all season by our coach and got his ass handed to him nearly every game? All the while, our big time PF prospect is playing center and our highly talented center is riding the bench, having no opportunity to develop b/c Pitino is mad at him. All these position mismanagements and one has to think that Pitino would have played Teague either behind Siva or at the SG next to him. Teague likely wanted neither.
Calipari is a cheating scumbag who lets players do whatever they want on and off the court. But that gets recruits. It also gets you nowhere in the tourney, but it gets you recruits. There is a gray area between that and the domineering do-what-I-say-or-you’re-benched philosophy of Pitino, and Pitino can’t go there because he is too much of a control freak. That is why recruits are backing out and will continue to do so as long as he’s here. God bless Blackshear and Coleman if they make it to campus. As far as ’11 goes, Pitino has already failed. No one wants to play for him and that was proven today.
Given all this, ask yourself, what is Teague supposed to do? I hate Calipari and everything he stands for, but I don’t blame kids for going to him over RP. Who in their right mind could?
Calipari is a cheating scumbag who lets players do whatever they want on and off the court. But that gets recruits. It also gets you nowhere in the tourney, but it gets you recruits.
Didn’t you kind of answer your own criticism, here. I mean, ultimately we want to win games, especially tournament games, right? Pitino’s still doing a solid job of that (not perfect or great, but good). Let’s not lose sight of the fact that recruiting is not the end game, even if it is important in getting there.
i'd love some proof ...
i’d really love some proof that Calipari is a “cheating scum bag”.
Of course, might want to keep in mind while you are throwing those stones, that between the two, pitino is the only one to be singled out and punished by the NCAA for … being a cheating scum bag.
Every idiotic argument to this effect should result in a lifetime ban.
We are supposed to believe that Cal is the unluckiest coach in the history of college athletics, and trouble just follows him to whatever program he runs. He had nothing to do with those two vacated Final Fours (aside from being the head coach).
Give us a freaking break already. I hope you have not actually deluded yourself into believing this. Lying to other people is one thing, but you should never lie to yourself..
by cardsinindy2010 on Apr 22, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
still no proof?
i don’t know whether he did it or not (nor do you). i think there is plenty of motivation for students to cheat on an SAT all on their own, and i’m just guessing here, but plenty of adults that would help them do it (like an AAU coach, someone looking for a cut of that NBA contract, a shoe company, etc.). I also find it entirely plausible that Marcus Camby didn’t run and tell his coach that he had violated a half dozen NCAA rules (call me crazy). In fact, i find it quite believable that a kid – knowing he did something wrong – went out of his way to hide it (which in Camby’s case, was as easy as not wearing a gold necklace to practice).
Either way, i try not to pass judgment without some proof (that whole innocent until proven guilty thing) – especially when all people seem to have is rumor and circumstantial evidence suggesting a man did anything wrong. To me, that’s not enough to slander a man’s good name.
would i say calipari is unlucky? well i suppose you could call it unlucky (maybe foolish?) to rely on the NCAA’s own investigative body to determine a kid is eligible and have them reverse course. It seems it might also be unlucky to have the name “Calipari” given that Williams, Pitino, and Coach K have all been traced directly to infractions (while Calipari has not) and no one seems to make a fuss about it.
In any case, i was merely suggesting that there was a wee bit of hypocrisy in a louisville fan calling Kentucky’s coach a cheater, when only Pitino has actually been found cheating.
Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard for imprisoning someone; it isn't the standard for making a common sense judgment based on the evidence at hand.
And there is more than enough evidence against Cal for that judgment. If you want to tell yourself otherwise, and invent hypothetical scenarios in which Cal could have been completely oblivious to the serious violations that were occurring under his nose, you are free to do so. Just be aware that the only folks who agree with you also happen to paint themselves blue and white for UK games, and even a few of them have their doubts.
by cardsinindy2010 on Apr 25, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
well no ...
that’s not entirely true. It sure does seem like the NCAA agrees with me.
if there’s “more than enough evidence” why don’t you talk about that instead of repeating these gross generalizations? In any case, i never mentioned a standard of proof. you’re welcome to convince me on the preponderance of the evidence standard instead of beyond a reasonable doubt.
I would like to dissect your post...
And to be clear, I don’t think Teague ultimately picked UK because he didn’t want to learn/work hard for Pitino. (That line is hilarious, maybe it has something to do with RP’s lousy track record with point guards reaching their potential and lack of success in the NBA. Do you honestly think Teague doesn’t want to learn or work hard? Get over yourself.)
But I also don’t think its irrational for the Knight/Gilcrist/Teague level players to realize they would rather have a system that shows off their individual skills for potential multi-million-dollar-a-year employers than one in which everyone plays less minutes, there is less emphasis on individual scoring and more emphasis on team/winning. (The dribble drive motion offense shows off skills and wins games, lots of games. It also showcases decisions, assists and teamwork. As far as playing less minutes, look at some statistics. Cousins averaged 23 minutes a game, Orton 13 mins, UK had 9 players that averaged double digit minutes, UL had 10 players. )
It’s not like they aren’t still going to win a ton of games at UK. It’s not like they are going to Depaul or St. Louis. But they are going to a system that wins with an offense designed to highlight their individual skills, and a system that gives its best players tons of minutes. (See Samardo Samuels comment below.)
They play aggressive man-to-man defense because they are really athletic, but they aren’t going to get pulled if their man scores. (Did you watch a UK game this year? Ask Bledsoe or Miller if this is true.)
One-and-done guys are not what Pitino is really looking for and are just not the best fits for Pitino’s system. (To simply defeat your entire post- Samardo Samuels was the leading scorer and averaged the most minutes on UL’s team this year. Oh, and he is one and done. Do you really think Pitino doesn’t want more players like this? )
Diggity-dissect yo' self before you wreck yo' self
Samardo’s been here for 2 seasons and “declared” for the draft but is likely to stay at L’ville. Not a one-and-done.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Apr 22, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously?
Good try.
First, I specifically say I DON’T think Teague picked UK because he didn’t want to work hard at UofL. I honestly think Teague DOES want to learn and work hard, which is what I was trying to communicate with my original sentence.
Second, Cousins averaged 23 minutes a game because of fouls and his temper. And no one matches Rick’s ability to yank a kid after one mistake, don’t tell me Calipari even gets close there.
Third, this is Samardo’s sophomore year and he should come back.
Thanks for attempting to “simply defeat my entire post” with a 1000% incorrect fact. Please recognize that your comment was incorrect and self-defeating.
Thanks for stopping by! I love intense internet UK fans with questionable reading comprehension skillz.
how dare you counter self-righteousness with facts
you should be ashamed of yourself, 922.
(i lived in atlanta for six years…they aren’t all that stupid)
by doctorofdunk on Apr 22, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just a complete defeat here, AtlantaCat
Go ahead and pack it up.
by Mike Rutherford on Apr 22, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Hard to knock Calipari's success
Aside from him being a sleazy, snake-oil salesman, Calipari’s success is tough to knock. As Bruce Pearl said when yUK hired Calipari, “we’ll all just have to work harder”. There’s really no other alternative.
"There is no OFF position to the genius switch" - D. Letterman
Get his son back up here
That’s what Rick is supposed to do.
Richie P is a hungry young man who landed us a #1 center (Samardo Samuels). Now that the sex scandal is out in the open, no point in continuing to let Billy Donovan have him. We need a momentum shift to swing the pendulum back our way, and Richard Pitino has shown he has what it takes. He’s a road warrior who can recruit.
Bring him back, Rick.
________________________________________________
~LK
www.myspace.com/lordkayoss
www.youtube.com/lordkayossrippro
www.lordkayoss.com
Richie P
Not sure if Richie P is the answer or not but he definitely needs some different assistants. Where is the next up and coming head coach coming from of his current assistants? McCarty- NO. Willard - Hell No -- please fire him tomorrow Masseilo — Nope.
If Rick can’t continue to bring in good Assistant coaches who can recruit, teach and help push along the program then he’s going to continue to fail with recruiting.
Rick is falling back on some of his old cronies from UK and previous times. Maybe nobody new wants to come near him with his current problems.
valid
If recruiting 5-star studs consistently isn’t possible, player development will remain vital to this program’s success. The bench doesn’t appear to be as strong as it’s been before. Could be a sign of a downward trend for the program but we won’t know for a couple more seasons.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Apr 24, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this trend started after the final 4 season, can’t remember who we lost, but we have yet to develop a player since that team as far as I can remember.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
T Will?
He developed pretty well, if I remember correctly.
by Cool Hand Cards on Apr 24, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
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