On Dieng, the NCAA and the state of Cardinal basketball
by Mike Rutherford on Oct 5, 2010 9:32 PM EDT
in Basketball
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PrintThe Gorgui Dieng ruling is an awful break for the young man and perhaps for the future of the U of L program, but I don't understand the people who are acting like we just went from national contender to Depaul (CJW!). Louisville is not going to be very good this season, but they aren't any worse than they were four weeks ago.
Dieng would have added some much-needed depth in the front court and he would have gained experience valuable for the next three seasons, but he wasn't the difference between 15 and 25 wins. I thought the ceiling last season was the Sweet 16, and I still think the ceiling for 2010-2011 is simply making the tournament.
That being said, the next eight months still represent one of the most crucial stretches in the history of the Louisville basketball program. No hyperbole. I mean every word of that.
Next season is going to be ugly on the court. That's not where the significance is going to lie.
If the losing is worse than expected, then all of the negative off-the-court issues that have transpired since the Michigan State Regional Final are going to be rehashed ad nauseum. A healthy contingent of Cardinal fans will turn up the heat on Rick Pitino (check the message boards right now). Scathing national columns will be written. Dick Vitale's unwavering support will comfort no one.
All of this is inconsequential if Pitino can convince Wayne Blackshear, Chane Behanan, the rest of his commits and a couple more highly-touted, currently undecided prep stars that this is still a program that can win a national title and still the program where they ought to spend the final years of their amateur careers. If this happens, Louisville is a national player from 2011-2013, and is in position to maintain that success in the foreseeable future.
If, however, Blackshear or Behanan waver and aren't supplanted by suitable replacements, then the Pitino era at Louisville will be on the brink of ending with a thud. In light of recent events, you get the feeling that The Don is just a few bits of disappointing news away from simply being over it all. Pitino has been putting the pieces in place to make a run at the national title in the next two seasons for some time, and seeing that dream fall apart would be enough to take a giant chunk out of any man, even one who's been through as much as Pitino has.
If Pitino leaves, is forced out, or retires after an extended period of relative futility, I just can't see Jurich finding someone who can re-invigorate the program as quickly and easily as some are claiming. Pitino is one of the biggest names in this sport and that will still be the case whenever it's decided that his coaching days at U of L are over. An established head coach pursued by Tom Jurich will undoubtedly think twice about the position if they see that someone like Pitino wasn't able to maintain a consistent level of elite success. The other option is the young, energetic head coach who recently led his mid-major team into the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament. That route has been and always will be extremely hit or miss.
My point is this: love or hate the present head coach, the combination of Rick Pitino, Louisville's current sophomores and juniors, and potential stellar recruiting classes in 2011 and 2012 could very well be the best shot this program has at a national title this decade.
More thoughts from the day that was:
The always solid NBE basketball blog interviewed Dieng's coach at Huntington Prep and communicates more about the situation than anything else on the Internet.
The money quotes:
"[It has to do with his] African transcript," Fulford said. "NCAA said he finished high school in Senegal, [but] he didn’t, so they then said he didn’t graduate on time [because of the] 8-semester rule. They appealed, but not sure where it is.
"[He] graduated here! They are saying he should have graduated over there. His last African transcript said 11th grade. It is obviously very confusing."
"It is sad for the kid," he said. "He turned down a pro contract in France to come here and finish high school and play college basketball.
"He scored an 810 and didn’t speak English when he arrived in the USA. [He] had a 3.3 here. My [European] kid at Iona was cleared in three days. It’s sad how selective they are."
Text from a friend this afternoon: "How bad has it gotten that I'm devastated by the Swop news?"
The NCAA doesn't deserve the extensive attention they're begging for with absurd decisions like this one. The association is an absolute joke and everyone knows it. I can bring myself to stomach (kind of) the greed-driven unfathomability (word) of something like the college football bowl system, but punishing a 19-year-old kid like Dieng who has done absolutely everything that anyone has ever asked of him is too sickening to properly address. Words of reason will do absolutely nothing in this case other than frustrate the hell out of everyone who isn't a member of the entity at the center of the issue.
Available players for the Red/White scrimmage in 19 days:
Peyton Siva
Preston Knowles
Mike Marra
Kyle Kuric
George Goode
Terrence Jennings
Stephen Van Treese
Rakeem Buckles
Chris Smith
Elisha Justice
Mark Jackson Jr.
Tim Henderson
That's two teams of five scholarship players and a pair of walk-on subs.
The arena being the star of the show could easily end up being the theme of the season.
Do we have a compliance office?
Justin Coleman and Roburt Sallie are shot down, Jordan Campbell and Demar Dorsey are ignored without explanation, and now a kid who speaks five languages and scored a fucking 31 on his ACT doesn't meet the academic requirements necessary to play Big East basketball. Meanwhile, down I-64, Sandy Bell just shot someone in Indianapolis a text and the third-grader from Billy Madison who can't read will be starting at center for the Cats inside Commonwealth on Saturday.
We already have like eight former Blue Bloods on staff, how about we throw some of that Ralph Willard money at her?
Speaking of Willard, what's the deal (with that shaving tray in the airplane bathroom?) with his move to director of basketball operations?
The Willard era at Louisville has been bizarre since day one. The only possible explanation at the time of his hiring - when he abandoned what figured to be one of his best teams at Holy Cross - was that Pitino thought the program might need an interim head coach. This new move by Willard, made so that he can "spend more time with his family," would seem to fall in line with that, since it's become apparent the head coach isn't headed anywhere else any time soon.
Pitino also seemed to hint that the swap with now-assistant Mark Lieberman might be temporary, which I think is equally odd, but whatever, I also don't get Raising Arizona.
My understanding is that Pitino really likes Dieng and has high hopes that eventually he will play basketball for Louisville. Here's hoping that hope comes to fruition. The kid deserves it.
Free Gorgui.
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Here's my one glimmer of hope for this season...
I posted this over on ITV, but they’re more interested in measuring one another’s “members” as real fans.
If you take measure of the other Big East teams coming into this season, we are hardly alone in having serious questions/issues. Syracuse will be very good. So will Nova and Pitt. Probably Georgetown, too.
Every other team either has serious issues with players, coaches (how many programs fired their head coach during the summer), or both. Seton Hall could be great. They could prove to be head-cases again, too (Cal would be proud of the mental patients that comprise the Pirate lineup). St. John’s could be a real surprise. Or they could take issue with Steve Lavin as head coach (or anyone besides D.J. Kennedy becoming a consistent Big East talent). UConn could hop on Kemba Walker’s shoulders and run to a Sweet 16. Or find out that the NCAA inquiries and lack of any wings, shooting guards, and big men are sorta a problem.
by CardinalEmpire.com on Oct 5, 2010 9:44 PM EDT reply actions
Planet Red Hoops board
is absolute chaos on a consistent basis. It’s not worth your time. I visit the Red Rage Pigskin board fairly often but the lack of rationality on the basketball board is mind-blowing.
by crazygameofpoker on Oct 6, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree 100%
A friend told me to check out Planet Red Hoops and I thought I was on a UK board, so negative. Then , I questioned an “insider” in a very nice way and was kicked off the board. That forum is a joke and all they are interested in is getting you to a “premium” board where “insiders” talk about things you can find here for free. I really appreciate this site. Go Cards!
Point is that only 1/4 of the league is a sure-fire NCAA Tourney lock...
the rest are complete toss-ups, if not plain awful (DePaul, Providence, USF, Cincinnati).
by CardinalEmpire.com on Oct 5, 2010 9:45 PM EDT reply actions
Very true
It’s going to be a down year. Crazy things can happen if a handful of guys improve more than any of us are predicting.
by Mike Rutherford on Oct 5, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The NCAA is a joke
The school has to be blamed on some level for all the players in multiple sports not getting cleared, but let’s remember there is no bigger fuck up than the NCAA clearing house. In some cases it’s clear first, ask question and strip wins later. In other cases, it’s penalize the kid and school while taking their sweet ass time making a decision. There is no bigger corrupt, double talking group of fucking assholes when it comes to anything outside of the NCAA. That includes the government.
Sums it up
I don’t really see who else we hire that gives us a better chance to win than Pitino. Really need to get back on top in 2011-2012, the new area and a big year or two will really help us in this next decade.
The problem with college basketball is that the top prospects these days don’t really care about the 80s or the 90s or even really the 2000s anymore. The super top prospects care about the NBA.
The huge wildcard: an NBA lockout in 2011 OR the change of the one-and-done rule. Pitino really got set back by the NBA boom of the early 2000s and then by the one-and-done rule. He’s adjusted to the new era by hiring Fuller and we are in on top recruits (and Blackshear and Behanan are both the real deal) for 2011 and beyond.
But I really don’t buy the “we’re going to run and gun this year” talk. Unless Mark Lieberman really teaches them how to play man to man defense, I don’t see how we don’t have to fall back on the zone, which really limits the ability to play fast break basketball.
We’ll see.
I like the run and gun talk
I don’t know why they stopped running the black and white last year of other variations of the press last year that worked well in the early season and the past two years. I don’t buy the “the other teams are too fast” excuses. That’s Pitino basketball. Hope he sticks to what he’s good at and the Cards run and gun all season. It makes decent teams good teams and good teams Champions.
by REALISTICCARDSFAN on Oct 6, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
They dropped too many assignments.
Remember all the early season woes and wide open fast break layups? Unfortunately, the players as a whole just weren’t smart enough to run his press. That’s also why, if you remember, he didn’t do his normal “throw the whole playbook at them until it sticks” routine. He had to introduce it a little at a time, and I would venture to guess that he never got all the way through it.
another year...more of the same soap opera
If we get another coach who would it be? Who knows? I guess if we did have a new coach maybe we could get one with morals and practice what he preaches. Makes me kind of wonder about all these kids we’ve had over the years that didn’t stay or was in RP doghouse. Maybe some of these kids knew or seen what was going on behind the scenes with coach and didn’t quite respect him the same. If you were in there shoes would you? There’s no doubt his sex scandal crap is hurting recruiting..think what these players mom’s are thinking. Damn IT!!!! hope it gets better for CARDS but I see no hope in sight if we don’t land Q.miller or Wroten in this class. How about this basketball program for a reality show??? Derby City Drama weeknights on the WB check your local provider for availability….
Great point.
I’m sure Caracter, Sosa, Daniels, and other college basketball stars are very pro-monogamy. In fact, given that they aren’t married, I doubt any have sex at all, and that the babies that Smith and TWill had were immaculately conceived.
Thanks for the insight.
After Pitino
I agree with most everything you said in the comments about Pitino. However I don’t think that this program will have trouble getting back under a new coach. A new coach won’t look at the Pitino era and say “you can’t build it back there”, etc etc. Most of the negtiave things that have gone on were brought on by Pitino himself.
Transfers
Freshman not playing because “they haven’t bought in to the system”
Sypher
Bad offense/ too much zone
Doesn’t let star players loose
Sypher
Alot of this is brought on by RP himself. HOWEVER I do think he can still win big here. It think he will do the things he needs to do to save face….EX Tim Fuller. However Louisville basketball is bigger than Pitino. We will win again no matter what anyone says.
"Louisville basketball is bigger than Pitino. We will win again no matter what anyone says."
Absolutely agree with this. How patient are you, though?
by Mike Rutherford on Oct 5, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
patience is a virtue
thats actually just some bullshit mantra I’ve learned over the years as a cubs fan. And as a cubs fan, the cards (basketball only obviously) have been my perennial sports team I can count on having a winning season in the last (give or take) 10 years. That being said, I agree with Mike. This year can and will dictate our chances of success as a program in the future. As in, while the program is bigger than Pitino, the next 5 years of our program will run parallel with success or failure of Coach P. To sum this all up, everyone who reads this should be as optimistic as possible, because no one can truly predict what will happen on the hardwood in the KFC Double-Down Downtown Dungeon* in the next 5 months; all that can really be said with any certain probability is that if Mike Rutherford can turn such uncertainty into a well reasoned and yet cautious conclusion on his first semester law school exams as he does in evaluating the future of our program, he will be in the top ten of his class.**
*Thats what im calling it, i dont care if it catches on or not.
**The reliability of predictions regarding failure or success of a 1L on first semester law school exams are complete inaccurate. good luck.
If I'm top ten in my class
I promise no less than five posts a day, every day in 2011-2012.
by Mike Rutherford on Oct 5, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Sign up for BarBri
and watch the online lectures to supplement your studying. They explain everything in simple terms.
by REALISTICCARDSFAN on Oct 6, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Well written Mike
You give solid voice to all of our frustrations. I don’t think that anyone had super high hopes for this season.
Any chance that the team “bonds over the adversity” and becomes markedly better? I’d put the odds of this happening at 5%, but I can hope right?
by Chris Redman is my hero on Oct 5, 2010 11:19 PM EDT reply actions
I see what you did there...
“Pitino also seemed to hint that the swop with now-assistant Mark Lieberman…”
What are we supposed to do...
Its frustrating, not because Dieng isn’t going to be on the court. But because we as fans have been promised soooo much and not because we asked for it. Visions of grandeur and the hopes that some day we could find ourselves hanging a championship banner are hard to abandon. RP feeds that fire, because he has the same. I trust Rick and love our program but as a true fan this is still disappointing :*(
by bjack357 on Oct 5, 2010 11:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I agree
How many times have we heard that next year we will be great or two years from now we will have the best recruiting class in school history or we are going to open the new arena with the best class in years. I have heard Pitino say all of this and he keeps building up expectations and not delivering. I am a die hard cards fan and will cheer them on no matter what but Pitino needs a serious wake up call or things will go down hill in a hurry. If he does not lad the ’11 class we have been promised for the last few years we will hear even more grumblings from the fan base. When the highlight of your incoming class is a walk-on PG who got offered a scholarship because lets face it we have plenty of them now then we are in trouble.
~~~~~~~~
Go Cards!
by ULcardsfan502 on Oct 6, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
"...what's the deal (with that shaving tray in the airplane bathroom?)"
- Jerry Seinfeld, I’m Telling You for the Last Time
OK but seriously, this is ridiculous with Dieng. 31 on his ACT and they still don’t let him play? And he graduated in the United States? I just don’t understand. From what I’ve read, it sounds like no matter what he did here mattered nor could it have.
And also, who is our Sandy Bell? Does he/she even exist?
The soap opera of Louisville basketball gets really tiring. It’s interesting to bring up that it seemed like at the end of Crum’s career it was always a matter of “if he’s eligible…” and I feel like the same is happening here. I agree with Mike that next year’s recruiting class is key and their commitments and subsequent performances will define Pitino’s path.
The basketball program’s futility (too far?) had no pigskin cure last year. I’m glad that’s changed.
by crazygameofpoker on Oct 5, 2010 11:56 PM EDT reply actions
it sounds like none of what he did here mattered nor could have*
by crazygameofpoker on Oct 6, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't base anything on what others say or think
but i’m not looking forward to more mouthy uk fan this season.
i’ll watch every game, and defend us on every issue that we’re on the right side of.
i’ll yell at the refs, and never say anything nice about pittsnogle.
but i wish we could have rewritten the last 3 years (save the final freedom hall game)…
so much promise.
so little actual.
come on, overachievement.
i’d love to see you.
i might just lock myself inside the Red Barn until it’s over…
Replacement Coach
I heard Bruce Pearl may become available.
FREE GORGUI
What the hell is going on here? Is the person in charge of making sure Gorgui gets cleared so inept that they could not submit proof of Gorgui’s high school degree? Was the person in charge at the NCAA so inept that they couldn’t understand the concept of him transferring into whatever the hell high school he graduated from in West Virginia? What the hell is the 8 semesters rule?
I think the 8 semester rule is this:
For athletes who receive a scholarship from a Division I university on or after August 1, 2008, their initial eligibility will be evaluated under the 16 core course rule.
(2004-2005 ninth grade)
you will need 16 core courses as outlined below:
4 years of English
3 years of mathematics (Algebra I or higher)
2 years of natural/physical science (one must be a lab science)
1 year of additional science, math or English
2 years of social studies
4 years of additional core courses (they can be from any listed above or from nondoctrinal religion or philosophy or foreign language)
So… Gorgui gets fucked over because he didn’t take English while in school in Africa? What’s the deal? What’s the secret? Why doesn’t the NCAA make their requirements transparent?
by REALISTICCARDSFAN on Oct 6, 2010 12:59 AM EDT reply actions
THE REAL QUESTION...
is who is Tim Henderson and is he the secret to a final four team this year???
by Cambroni Cardinals on Oct 6, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions
He's makin' love on rainy nights, he's a stroll through Christmas lights
He’s every walk-on that we’ve ever had.
by Mike Rutherford on Oct 6, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
You just made my morning, the day doesn’t seem so bad now.
It's a good thing we play UNLV at home
with Lake Tahoe being a short drive from Vegas and all…
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm with Tbone, disagree Mike that an
“..established head coach pursued by Tom Jurich will undoubtedly think twice about the position if they see that someone like Pitino wasn’t able to maintain a consistent level of elite success…,”
It’s still one of the upper premium coachin gigs in the country. If the time comes to look for a new coach in 2012, Jurish and Louisville will pull a premium, established name.
I’m a huge Pitino fan and backer, but if 2011 doesn’t pan out, it’ll be time IMHO. Like Spurrier did with his star QB, and like Chris C sang, you gotta know when to fold em and walk on out that door.
The littany recruitment implosions is becoming epic. Scratch that.. IS epic.
I am far from an expert, but I doubt anyone can come up with another coach with this many mind-boggling fails, especially at the level Coach has. Regardless the explanations, enough is enough! I say Final Four in 2011-12 — or post the job opening.
Anybody else feel like we're being disingenuous
When we talk about how Dieng is a good kid and it isn’t fair? I mean, I’m sure he’s a good kid, but would we care about him if he didn’t play basketball?
This might be a reaction to the mutants down in lexington talking about how Bledsoe was a great guy who just needed a break. Really? Well, what about the hundreds of thousands of other kids who can’t run or jump in alabama who are living below the poverty line. Why doesn’t anyone care about them?
Any chance we can spin these 3 ineligibility decisions to mean that UL is one of a few programs that isn’t cheating? That would make it easier to swallow. I mean, Cal has never had a player declared inelligible (before the season), and Tyreke Evans even killed someone.
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 11:13 AM EDT reply actions
On breaks
There are plenty of scholarships for kids in AL who can score 31 on the ACT but can’t run or jump. Comparing this to UK fans asking us to pity Bledsoe b/c he “needed a break” has no bearing here either—it only solidifies Dieng’s argument b/c the kid clearly earned his scholarship in every facet and didn’t need a “break.” So yes, in a way the Bledsoe issue does make this sting a little worse. Though not nearly as bad as Pitino’s all-too familiar string of hard luck recruiting gaffes at Louisville.
Most, if not all major D1 programs push the envelope when it comes to rules and ethics at one time or another—Pitino hired Teague’s [assistant] HS coach, don’t forget that. I would argue that UK took a bigger chance w/ Bledsoe than UL w/ Dieng, but them’s the breaks.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Instant retrospect
Literally, Dieng has yet to “earn” an NCAA basketball scholarship in every facet b/c his African HS transcripts weren’t good enough to meet the minimum NCAA standards. But by virtue of his hard work, athleticism and IQ, he’s earned the opportunity.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not disingenuous.
Dieng can still got to UofL for free on an academic scholarship with those scores and grades; he just can’t play basketball apparently.
Bledsoe and all those others that scrape by with a suspicious 2.5GPA are a completely different situation. They may, in fact, deserve a “break” from time to time, but Dieng’s situation isn’t a case of getting a “break.” The kid deserves to be in college because he worked for it, and he’s just downright getting screwed.
You guys are right
hopefully he can still go to UL and get an education and a job even if basketball doesn’t work out.
I just feel insincere because I generally don’t care about whether or not people in his situation get screwed or not, unless they want to play sports for a team I root for. The mutants in lexington are saying the same things about Kanter- I guess maybe they’re right about him too. Possibly he’s getting screwed too- academic or amatuer issues aside.
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't know about him.
But if I did, he’s the kind of kid who intrigues you and you root for, regardless of his basketball skills.
My patience is gone
Mike, I agree with much of what you’ve written, but my patience is all but gone after nine and a half years. The early round losses bother me greatly, but it’s the stuff going on off the court that really has me upset and I’m not talking solely about Sypher. I’m talking mostly about the lack of a coherant recruiting strategy.
Almost fromt he start, Pitino’s recruiting has been all over the place. Early on, he went after JC players to fill the holes. That blew up in his face. Then he went after high profile guys like Telfair and that blew up in his face. Then he went after the top 20-40 guys and that worked fairly well until numerous transfers left roster holes. Faced with Calapari down the road, he went after the high profile guys again only to see it blow up in his face again.
Now to be fair, some of what has happen is just bad luck. Still, when it happens year after year, at some point, it becomes a trend and falls squarely in the lap of Pitino. Just think about what has happened since the MSU loss. Sypher, a disasterous season, Teague, ineligible players, and the Sypher trial. That’s just too much, especially for someone who is paid the wage Pitino earnes.
For some time, my anger with Pitino has been growing, but I was willing to wait and see how the mythical 2011 class formed. When Teague dumped us for UK, I decided I had seen enough. Now, I’m not going to spend the next few years arguing for his firing, but I think it’s time for a change. If the revelations of the Sypher trial weren’t enough, the last four weeks have cemented that feeling. In 28 days, Sallie, Coleman, and Dieng were all ruled ineligible. That would be a tough set of circumstances spread over a few years and we saw all this in a month.
Not sure this is in perspective
The sypher thing was embarrassing, and the 2010 recruiting class was bad. Remember though, the class was a dissaster to beign with, and then he took a chance on Sallie, Coleman, and Dieng to try to save the class. He can be blamed to taking those risks, but he can’t be blamed for them no being eligible, unless we suggest he do something shady a la Calipari.
He lost to MSU, but he also won the BE and BE tournament DURING the sypher mess. So, since the loss to MSU, he was extorted for something that happened 6 years ago, went to trial, lost a big recruit, and had a lousy recruting class. I don’t know who could do better though. Who could UL hire. its a tough time to be a UL fan, but there aren’t many better coaches out there- and they already have jobs (e.g., Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self, etc…)
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this argument is getting pretty stale...
Would the Pitino of the early 90’s even worry himself about what the peanut gallery thought? Or would he be too buried in doing his job, recruiting players, and diagramming winning game plans to be bothered by what you & I think?
The guy was a fantastic basketball coach, is still a pretty darn good one, and probably has a couple years left. But I’m sure Tom Jurich can find a young up-and-comer with more fire, a stronger work ethic (today and going forward, not necessarily compared to Pitino at UK), and better ability to connect with today’s recruits.
Pitino complains about a lot of society’s ails, but forgets that the kids whose homes he’s trying to go in and get a signature are part of that society.
by CardinalEmpire.com on Oct 6, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
There was a lot more to that post
Don’t know what happened. But my initial points were that:
1) We’re eventually going to have to answer the question “who could do better?” Pitino turned 58 last month and isn’t long for this career.
2) I would argue there are better options, especially for the long-term. We’re already seeing the old man grumblings of someone who doesn’t get the “microwave society”, doesn’t play freshmen because they “don’t buy in to the system” or “can’t understand the scouting report”, and fans the flames of good v. bad fans when the peanut gallery gets too loud questioning his fire/desire/ability.
by CardinalEmpire.com on Oct 6, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
LOST
Pitino’s work ethic is unmatched. Go goggle Pitino’s coaching tree and then tell me this guy doesn’t work hard. Go ask the best business person you now how difficult it would be to continually lose their 2nd in charge to companies in the same business and in the smae market. Billy Donovan, Herb Sendek, Tubby Smith, Reggie Theus, Cronin, Willard now at Seton Hall, etc. The only way Pitino has lost these guys over the years and stayed successful is by working his tail off. He has finally gotten selfish on this front and hired some longer term guys like Fuller that will help stabalize recruiting. Coaching turnover (even positive coaching turnover) is a killer just ask Crum after Wade Houston finally took a head coaching job. Some of you people just don’t get it and by the way, you didn’t even name one viable candidate that could replace Pitino, not one! You think UK has issues getting a big name, it would be tougher for us. Better wake up my man! Go Cards!
You just listed issues that haven't been relavent in 5 years
Sendek, Donovan, and Smith were never even on his UofL staff. Theus, Cronin, and Willard were all gone soon after the Final Four (if not before). Since then we’ve had a revolving door of former UK friends and Willard, Sr. I have no idea what any of this has to do with his work ethic today.
My point remains. Today, in 2010, the signs of a man winding down are starting to show. Complaining (about his players, about the fans, about society in general) instead of fixing. Not relating to the uber-studs. Having to take chances on risky players, excessively large classes (2005), or diamonds in the rough (which has worked at times… see: Williams, Terrence) and seeing too many of these risks blow up in his face (Caracter, most of the 2005 class, the entire 2010 class).
The inconsistency in his own comments even smack of a guy who can’t find north. In October it’s “best shooting team ever”, by December we can’t make shots. Preseason 2005 we’ll “never be outside the Top 25 again”… midseason we’re rebuilding.
One viable candidate? I’ll give you two:
Scott Drew, Baylor.
Brad Stevens, Butler
Young guys, tearing it up on the recruiting trail, and finding success in March. At lesser programs. With less financial support. And less cache nationally.
by CardinalEmpire.com on Oct 6, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Those were three top assitants in a two year span and we still landed two lottery picks and Samuels who was ranked top 1 o2 by everybody. Some kids pan out, some don’t. Losing coaches effects everything from recrutiing to game planning. Not to mention Pitino has been extorted for the last few years which must have been tough.
Scott Drew- what has he done, one Elite 8 in 7 years at Bayor are you kidding me? Only even made the tourney twice? AND people call him Calipari Jr.
Brad Stevens- flavor of the month, give me a break. BCG was the flavor of the month at UK because Texas A&M beat us in the tourney, that worked out well. I agree he is a good young coach but not even close to Pitino.
“Tearing it up on the recruiting trail”- Neither one of them have over a 3 star commited so far for 2011
Agree again
What it would take to replace Pitino is patience. at least 3-4 years of program building. I would hope they would go with a young guy rather than over-paying a big name.
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure it’s easy to dismiss the candidates when you are so blindly loyal to an idea that has not come even close to panning out for better than 50% of Pitino’s tenure at UofL. Two Elite 8’s and a Final Four are great, don’t get me wrong. But when the other 6 years consist of two NIT’s, two NCAA one-and-dones, and two second-round appearances, well… I think we all expected a little more consistency in the middle and not so much volatility in results (how about a Sweet 16 or three?).
Let me dig in to your review of Scott Drew, though. I see you’ve done a quick check of either his school bio or maybe Baylor’s Wiki page. But do you have even an inkling as to why he struggled until 2007-2008? Oh yeah, Baylor received all but the death penalty for the recruiting violations and the attempted cover-up of the circumstances of Patrick Dennehy’s death. The full probation of Baylor hoops only just expired this year.
I’d say considering the cards he was dealt, he did an amazing job at Baylor. Imagine if he had a job where his school wasn’t an after-thought in its own conference, much less he didn’t have to save basketball from being outright dropped?
by CardinalEmpire.com on Oct 6, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice call on Scott Drew.......NOT
NCAA investigating Baylor, sending threatening texts that told coaches one kid would not make it back to the US unless he signed with Baylor. The ONLY way Drew rebuilt Baylor was by cheating, simple as that. Pitino is a great coach and takes very few risks with recruiting violations, it may frustrate us sometimes but we have the best coach we could ever hope for and need to support him. Go Cards!
By the way, UK and Calipari will get busted as well, just a matter of time, we all know it. So why do people sweat UK, they are cheating, PERIOD.
I appreciate the response and I certainly won’t dismiss the 2009 season. It was great. Still, everything that has gone on since has just worn me out. As I noted, I think cracks in the dam were appearing earlier, but the dam burst in 2009 and 2010. I’m just amzed at how quickly we’ve fallen off the map since 2009 and in some ways it’s Kragthorpian. (Not comparing Pitino to Krag).
I think the thing that infuriates me the most is there is no real criticism of Pitino from the media. He just spins away and they eat it up. Calling 2011 a bridge season is the epitome of what’s wrong with the program. Like I said, I’m not going to waste my breath arguing for his firing, but I’m looking forward to a change.
I say enjoy the ride
People are over reacting to what’s going on down the road, simple as that. I loved Crum but he went 62-62 his last four seasons, people forget what Pitino walked into. We have been to the Elite 8 or better 50% of the time over the last six seasons. People want to write us off before the season ever starts, crazy. Love or hate Pitino, he is a great coach and I think he is finally getting selfish in one area that will pay off big time- Assistant Coaches. When you lose the number of coaches he has (two now head coaches in Big East) your recruiting wil take a hit. I like that he has long term assistants that can recruit. The day Wade Houston left Louisville, the progrm fell apart whether people like to admit that or not. Pitino WILL become the ONLY coach to win titles at two different schools, enjoy the ride and cheer these kids on! Pitino has done more with less talent. ONE thing is for sure, negative comments and bashing our coach won’t help anything. I remember UK fans bashing Pitino when the Fab 5 beat them in 1994, people said it will never happen. We could have easily have been in three final fours in the past six years, don’t act like UK fans, Pitino is the best chance for us to get our first title in 24 years and counting.
by CardJunkie on Oct 6, 2010 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
semi agree
i agree that people are overreacting calling for his head. I can see us wanting him gone for the sypher stuff. like it or not it shows how much stock jurich and our fans have in Pitino by staying by his side (in Kentucky no less) during an adultery/abortion dilemma. But you cannot fault his basketball accomplishments. Remember, there are 316 Division one schools and only 4 go to a final four and only one wins it all. He isn’t going to be at the top every year. Heck, UNC won it all and followed that up with a N.I.T. season. It happens. This team will be lucky to make the tournament this year and last year was about the same, but you shouldn’t be FIRED over it. If you have a bad week at work, should your boss call you in and hand you the pink slip? Stuff happens, he has done a lot for the UL program over the decade and if it wasn’t for him do you think we’d be opening a new arena this season??? Probably not. Don’t jump off the bandwagon just yet, let 2011 come and then we’ll see where you doubters are!
by Cambroni Cardinals on Oct 6, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Good points
The only thing about the Sypher deal is that it happened so long ago and I think it’s tough to fire a guy who is being extorted and handled an embarassing situation as best he could. Pitino has screwed up but we all have. The funny thing is that people were never going nuts over recruits rankings until last year with UK’s team. I think the Syoher thing was a huge monkey off Pitino’s back and now he can have fun and coach. People need to stay the course and good things will happen. All negativity can do is scare away recruits and set us back. We have talent on this team and need to go out and support them, anything can happen when you hit the court. A win against UK, making the tourney and signing this class are all very, very possible. I say we get it done!!! Go Cards!
One can enjoy the ride while questioning the head coach
That doesn’t make you a “doubter” necessarily but a concerned fan who wants the best for their program. A program into which they’ve invested copious time/$$ to “enjoy the ride”.
Pitino pimped hyped these recruiting classes more early and often than any Louisville fan, blog or pay site did. If a Louisville fan can’t criticize Pitino for failing to deliver, then we have become pedestrian frogs in a kettle, so to speak.
Criticism /= overreaction
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
pitino pimped recruiting classes?
until a kid has signed he cannot say their name to any media outlet. all i’ve ever heard Pitino say is how hard him and his assistants have worked to bring in top classes. I never heard a promise. but…i could be wrong.
I agree you can critize him all you want. I just don’t like the “true” UL fans who say he should be fired. Kragthorpe should have been fired. Pitino..not so much.
Pitino will get it done boys. It may not be this year but have some faith. He does his best with his back against the wall. Do we all agree that a NCAA berth should be the goal this season?? If you agree with that i don’t want to hear you hating on Pitino when they lose in the first round.
by Cambroni Cardinals on Oct 6, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
To each his own
All UL fans I’m friends with and/or related to still have faith that Pitino can be successful the next 3 years based on history, specifically his X’s & O’s and motivational skills. You can manipulate the stats and rankings to make an argument good or bad but most fans believe the man is still a HOF coach who has had a very has-been 36 months.
Can he reverse this negative trend? We all want him to. Will he? Unknown. Some fans choose to harshly criticize, others ignore, most are inbetween. To each his own.
A fan can opine that Pitino should be fired and that doesn’t necessarily make them less true of a fan than you, just more critical (or perhaps more of a moralist). For the record, I don’t think he should be fired.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
or...
more of an unrealistic fan to think Pitino should be in the Elite 8 every year.
by Cambroni Cardinals on Oct 6, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
agree
I judge performance based on what you do with the tools available. Pitino has almost every tool imaginable at his disposal, sans Nike shoes to oversee a successful basketball program. I’m disappointed with the recent downward trend but not doubting his ability (yet).
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry that should read 18 months, not 36
internal calculator error
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying people can't criticize
but Crum won 2 titles in 30 years and it took him 9 years to win his first. Pitino’s first recruiting class went to the Final Four, his next two went to the Elite 8. Louisville has only had two lottery picks in the same year ONCE with all our great players and that was under Pitino. I’m guess I shouldn’t even say people are less of a fan if they want Pitino fired but they just don’t know baksetball IMO. Look at Crean at IU or Bob Knight at Texas Tech or Billy Donovan at Florida, Pitino’s success over the course of years at three different schools is unmatched. So criticize all you want but all you may do in the end is run off our best chance for a title any time soon. We have won two titles in the past 99 years as a program, it’s not like it happens all the time, support our team and enjoy the ride.
I totally agree with this post.
UL had one mediocre season and may very well have a worse one this year. But, Pitino has been very successful at UL. I would be good to remind ourselves that UL has been the 2nd most successful school in the BE in W-L (behind Pitt) since the BE merger.
But also- Pitino isn’t going to let fans run him off. Not after being the coach at the most delusional fanbase in college sports.
On a side note- The more I avoid UL message boards, the happier I am about UL’s program. Especially the day after bad news breaks.
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t about winning titles with me. It’s about having a top program with top players. Top programs don’t always win the title, but they’re in the hunt year in and year out.
We have been a top program over the past six years and had two lottery picks. We’ve had one bad year and people are already bagging this year before it even starts, give me a break. By the way, last year we could have easily won the Big East, beat UK, and made a run in the talent, we just couldn’t get over the hump but we were right there.
Name one
program that has been a national title contender every year since Pitino has been at UofL. There aren’t any. That’s exactly the kind of unrealistic expectation that Junkie, hot hot and others are talking about in this thread. Sure, Id like to be #1 every year. I’d like to win 10 straight national titles. I’d like to have Bill Gates’ fortune, too, but it ain’t gonna happen.
Nah, just defending the rights of fans who are critical
Rick Pitino has over-promised and under-delivered over the last 18 months. He hyped up the program’s uptick and recruiting classes and talent that haven’t panned out over that time period.
If you go back and read any of my posts from 2009 – today, I’ve been very supportive of keeping Pitino and have always asked those who want him fired; “With whom would you replace him?”
I think RP is a victim of his own overachieving past and just b/c he’s had a bad 18 months does not mean he’s lost it, necessarily. But to discount all fans who feel that the last 18 months are a sign of what’s to come by calling them unrealistic is not necessarily accurate.
Nobody expects Final Fours every year but most Louisville fans feel that Pitino has all the tools (and salary) necessary to be in the discussion every 3-4 years and to generally out-coach and out-recruit 70% of our opponents year in and year out.
I believe that giving him time to turn this thing around is better than firing him and rolling the dice on an “up-and-comer” coach. But fans have the right to ask “what happened?” after Pitino promised so much and has delivered so little over the last 18 months.
by UL is my hot hot sex on Oct 6, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Defending people who are dissatisfied is one thing.
But when somebody says we should be “in the hunt year in and year out” they are being unrealistic.
Sorry for mischaracterizing your position.
Sounds like the concern is top players not top programs
Every top program occassionally loses in the first round of the tournament. If that’s “falling off the map” then I’d hate to see what you think of UCONN and UNC. Duke lost in the first round a couple seasons ago. Bill Self did it at Kansas several times.
Not to use a cliche here, but the game is played on the court- not in recruiting battles in the off season. I’d rather have supposedly mediocre players and good teams, than “top players” and bad teams. That’s what they do in Lexington. They care about how many players they get in the NBA and how many kids they can get on campus for 4 months.
This year hasn’t happened yet. It doesn’t look good and UL certainly won’t be in the hunt for a FF, but the only argument for the program “falling” is recruiting. On the court, UL has been a top 10 program while Pitino has been there.
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Noone said they want Coach fired
So I’m confused why some of you are railing against such ghosts. For myself, I said I will want that IF the 2011 class isn’t stellar. Even today, Pitino is telling us we’re on a bridge to that class. Ok, fine. GET US THERE. I’m also angry that we paid for Wroten to visit when it seems clear to virtually everyone who pays attention that the kid is going to put on a UW hat tomorrow. Parrish recently penned a good column about how coaches need to focus on recruiting only the ones they have a shot at and stop courting the ones they don’t. That seems to be a huge problem for our coach. I mean, honestly, did any of you really think we had a shot at Teague?
The same people that say Wroten is going to UW said Teague was a LOCK at Louisville. People say Pitino should recruit one and dones then criticize him when they jmped to the NBA or decide to play overseas. With Fuller, we have a shot at all these kids and should go after all of them. Wroten is crazy if he picks a football school like Washington over Louisville. Siva and TWill came from Seattle but we shouldn’t have recruited them if it wasn’t a LOCK. Let me clue you in here, nothing in life is a LOCK, NOTHING.
Are you serious?
Teague came very close to playing at UL. His dad played for pitino for chrissakes. We didn’t have a shot? A lot of people were surprised when UK came into the picture at the end.
I’m sick of the “we lost teague, its a sinking ship” argument. He’s one player.
by johnnyjoejohnson on Oct 6, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Most recruiting analysts believed we were a virtual lock for Teague until Calipari suddenly did “something.”
cal had the #1 draft pick again at teague's position
that chumps anything pitino did in two years.. sorry but blame the kids greed and not your “theories”
FREE ENES
The only program close is Michigan State and people are frustrated because they get there an don’t win it. All programs have up and down years. UNC has an entire team full of McDonald All-Americans and went to the NIT, it happens. The bottom line is that many Louisville fans are too worried about what is going on up the road and they haven’t won squat. We all know it’s just a matter of time before they get cracked by the NCAA. People don’t appreciate their car until it won’t start. People don’t appreciate loved ones until they are gone. I just can’t believe we have so many fans that are just like the UK fans I can’t stand. I’ll end on this, when you walk into the new arena and are blown away, you can know for a FACT that is doen’t happen if not for Rick Pitino. And you jump on the bandwagon later but when Rick Pitino becomes the ONLY coach to ever win two titles at two different schools along with the ONLY coach to EVER take three different schools to the Final Four…………….I’ll be able to look in the mirror and say I NEVER DOUBTED HIM FOR ONE SECOND! Go Cards!
Aren't there UK fans that YOU can't stand?
b/c there are certainly UofL fans that I can’t stand. CardJunkie’s “crack” was at a specific group of UK fans, evident by the word “the”, not at the entire fanbase.
(and you’ve been saying that I put words in your mouth…reading comprehension bro.)
by Remote Cardinal on Oct 7, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
yea i know he was only targeting the dumb uk fans
thats why i put the lol at the end.. was just messing around… oh yea there are plenty of uk fans i cant stand…plenty
FREE ENES
LOSE OR WIN
GO CARDS till the day i die. Unless of course I get offered more money to be a UK fan
by Cambroni Cardinals on Oct 6, 2010 7:21 PM EDT reply actions
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